BOARD OF SELECTMEN
Natick Town Hall
May 27, 2009
4:00 p.m.
The meeting was called to order by the Chairman John Ciccariello at 4:10 p.m.
PRESENT: John Ciccariello, Joshua Ostroff, Kristine Van Amsterdam, Carol A. Gloff, John Connolly.
ALSO PRESENT: Martha L. White, Town Administrator; Donna Challis, Secretary
EXECUTIVE SESSION
Ms. Van Amsterdam, seconded by Ms. Gloff, moved to enter into executive session to discuss matters pertaining to litigation and real property. By roll call vote the motion passed on a 5-0-0 vote. At 4:10 p.m. the Board entered into executive session after announcing that the meeting would return to open session.
The open session was reconvened at 6:05 p.m.
APPLICATION FOR JUNK DEALERS LICENSE – ARCH STANTON, LLC
Appearing on behalf of Arch Stanton in their request for a junk dealer’s permit for premises at the Natick Collection, 1245 Worcester St., Suite 2040 was the President Andrew Youngman and Jim Hensel.
Mr. Youngman noted that Arch Stanton had applied for and received a temporary junk dealer’s license and was looking to extend that event and looking for a license for the balance of this year.
Mr. Ciccariello was of the understanding that Arch Stanton opened and didn’t have a license.
Mr. Hensel explained there was a misunderstanding. They were under the belief they could continue to sell things and that was what they were going to do until the license was renewed. He was not there when people brought things in to be purchased and the premise was shut down. Mr. Hensel said he spoke with a lieutenant at the Police Department and explained to him what Arch Stanton wanted to do – just be open for sales, not for purchases and the lieutenant said that was OK. Lieutenant Lauzon, however, said it was not OK because what was being sold was still second hand.
Mr. Hensel continued that Lieutenant Lauzon was provided with all the transactions and contact information of all purchases over the last two weeks. They (Arch Stanton) were trying to do everything the best way possible and apologized if the rules weren’t followed to the tee for this past weekend. They immediately stopped and he communicated with Lieutenant Lauzon multiple times on Sunday for what they could and could not do.
Mr. Ostroff recalled the Board giving Arch Stanton a junk dealers license and at the time it was very clear a license was being granted to buy and sell for six specific days. He was at a loss for how this could have happened. Engaging a business outside the terms of the license was a signal you couldn’t be trusted.
Mr. Hensel responded that the misunderstanding had nothing to do with the purchasing. They applied for a license to purchase gold, but they were also selling items as well as buying. The two transactions that happened Saturday where there was an acquisition was a problem with the staff and them not understanding. As soon as Lieutenant Lauzon made a comment that was stopped.
Mr. Hensel acknowledged that it should not have happened, but explained that he (Mr. Hensel) went to the Police Department and was told they shouldn’t be buying anything and they weren’t (they were selling). He called the Selectmen’s office about getting a license extension and the next meeting was June 1. The people at his store should have known and should have said they would be happy to value what was brought in but nothing could be done and please come back.
APPLICATION FOR JUNK DEALERS LICENSE – ARCH STANTON, LLC (contd)
Mr. Youngman offered his apologies for the misunderstanding. Despite his instructions some things happened at the event and he assured the Board it would not happen again. There were explicit instructions of what could and couldn’t be done. They needed to keep the door open so people would come back. The employee involved has been removed from this operation.
Ms. Gloff noted that she had an opportunity to speak with Lieutenant Lauzon and as she understood it he had been in the Natick Collection on Thursday and told by representatives of the company that owns Natick Collection that Arch Stanton was no longer there.
Mr. Hensel advised that Arch Stanton had been negotiating a lease since Monday. It depends on who you talk to. The Mall management would say they (Arch Stanton) was no longer there, but the leasing management knew they were in the process of negotiating a lease. The space they were in wasn’t going to be available on an ongoing basis but it was now.
Mr. Connolly referred to an e-mail from Lieutenant Lauzon. The last sentence said, “I was a little perturbed at what happened next”, and asked if Mr. Hensel or Mr. Youngman had any idea of what he meant.
Mr. Hensel believed it was Saturday when Lieutenant Lauzon came to the Mall after which he (Mr. Hensel) came to the Police Department. Lieutenant Lauzon wasn’t there and he spoke to the officer in charge of operations, offered his apologies, and asked what they could and couldn’t do. The officer said Arch Stanton could sell but couldn’t buy. Lieutenant Lauzon called the Mall and said they couldn’t do either. The Mall security informed them of that on Sunday and shut them down.
Mr. Hensel said he got in touch with Lieutenant Lauzon and had a conversation and cleared up the difference of what he (Mr. Hensel) was told Saturday and his understanding of the laws. They moved forward without any problem doing estimates for people but no transactions. He had not talked to Lieutenant Lauzon since mid afternoon Sunday.
Lieutenant Grassey was present and told the Board that he was the commanding officer when Mr. Hensel came in and they had a short conversation about what Arch Stanton was doing. The business was shut down by Lieutenant Lauzon. Lieutenant Grassey noted that he was not totally informed himself.
Mr. Ciccariello pointed out the terms of the lease were from May 22-July 12, 2009 and asked if those were the dates to be licensed. Mr. Youngman advised that they were, but given the circumstances if possible they were looking to go beyond that to when licenses were renewed in the spring.
Mr. Ciccariello reiterated that the duration of the lease was only to July 12. Mr. Hensel explained that the business would still be in the Mall only a different location in the Mall. This eight week period was for Arch Stanton to see if it would work.
Mr. Ostroff stated that he would like to hear from Lieutenant Lauzon on this matter. Lieutenant Lauzon did an enforcement matter and he (Mr. Ostroff) wanted to have the benefit of his view before awarding the license.
Ms. Gloff didn’t have a problem with what Mr. Ostroff was suggesting, but noted that Lieutenant Lauzon didn’t revoke a license. Arch Stanton didn’t have a license.
Having heard from Lieutenant Grassey, Mr. Ciccariello said he was ready to vote.
A motion was made by Ms. Van Amsterdam to grant Arch Stanton a junk dealer’s license for premises at the Natick Collection for the period of May 27-July 12, 2009. Seconded by Mr. Connolly. The motion passed on a 4-1-0 vote. Mr. Ciccariello, Ms. Van Amsterdam, Ms. Gloff, Mr. Connolly voted in favor of the motion. Mr. Ostroff was opposed.
Speaking to the motion Ms. Gloff said she would vote for the license but making comments like meeting the rules to a tee came across as pretty condensing. There were rules and Arch Stanton didn’t have a license. When the license was previously granted it was very clear that it was only for two weekends.
Mr. Connolly warned Mr. Youngman and Mr. Hensel to be on their toes and to do the right thing.
Mr. Youngman again offered his apologies.
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF
Since the Board was interviewing each candidate individually, Mr. Ciccariello asked that those sitting in the public not speak to any of the candidates during the process so one candidate didn’t have an advantage on any of the others.
Mr. Ciccariello advised that each candidate would be given an opportunity to make an opening statement and a closing statement.
The candidates were interviewed in alphabetical order and each was asked the same series of questions:
- Please describe your qualifications and training for the position of Interim Chief.
- What are the most significant short and long-term issues facing the Department?
- Please describe your style of leadership and management, including your approach to resolving disciplinary issues.
- What changes, if any, would you seek to make as Interim Chief?
- Describe 1 to 3 incidents or situations that have influenced your development as a leader.
- Recently the Chief of Police assigned a patrol officer to a School Resources Officer position, dedicated to the elementary and middle schools, while the department’s juvenile officer has formally been assigned as Natick High School’s SRO. With dwindling resources at your disposal as interim Chief of Police, do you agree or disagree with these assignments, and what are the advantages and disadvantages of these assignments?
- In 2000, the Chief organized the department’s patrol force to an area command, with three areas within Natick. Each area was assigned three supervisors, comprising an area commander and two other sergeants, and approximately 10 officers, in order to work collaboratively to solve problems in these areas. In your assessment, what are the advantages and disadvantages to crime reduction of both the previous and the current deployment?
- The recently approved FY 2010 budget contained cuts to the Police budget of more than $350,000, which was accomplished by reducing the number of crossing guards by four; paying for the dispatch supervisor from a grant; foregoing the appropriation for the planning sergeant while he is on military active duty; leaving one patrol officer position unfilled; and cutting $100,000 from the overtime appropriation. How would you approach the budget process for FY 2011, when the Town is likely to have fewer financial resources?
- Please describe the process by which you would seek to make changes that may alter the working conditions of members of a particular bargaining unit within the Police Department. In your response, describe the differing bargaining requirements (decisional vs impact) and the distinction between the two.
- Lieutenant Brian Grassey
Lieutenant Brian Grassey expressed his appreciation for the Board taking the time for this process. All too often people have a misconception of Police officers and what they did. This was an opportunity to meet the person and get a sense of who they were. The Interim Chief was something he would never avoid. The ultimate goal was to become the permanent chief in this department.
Question 1
Lieutenant Grassey stated that he had been employed by the Natick Police Department in excess of 22 years from reserve to patrolman, detective, sergeant and now lieutenant. His entire career had been based upon advancing his position, learning his craft, and doing it well. He prepared himself with a Master’s in criminal justice. He tried to be attentive to his duties, attended management groups, and had a breadth of experience with officials and the community. The totality of his experience had put him in a position where he was a favorable candidate for this position.
Question 2
Lieutenant Grassey felt the economy was the most serious and the ability to provide service to the Town. The Police Department will have to come up with ways to continue its service and his hope was that they don’t lose bodies. Both police and fire will be facing some major difficulties with public safety.
His long-term goals would be to get through this cycle of the economy without damaging the work done the last few years. There was a good body of individuals working for the department and his desire was to preserve that core of individuals and not disrupt the service and make our way through the
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
downturn. Once we got out of this trend he hoped to build on what was there and make a superior police service.
Aside from the economy and the impact that had on the staffing, Mr. Ostroff inquired as to what other challenges Lt. Grassey saw the department facing that he may need to deal with as interim chief.
Lt. Grassey responded that he would like to mandate the ongoing training program, but that went back to dollars. He didn’t foresee any protracted problem with the ranks. It was a group of professionals.
Question 3
Lt. Grassey described his style as participatory. It was often ingrained in an officer’s psyche that you were alone and it was difficult going from the person in the patrol car up the ladder to where you establish a task for the department. He would prefer in situations that were emergent that there was more of a consensus. He understood the conditions the individuals were working in. Snap decisions had to go by the way side and he had full confidence in the people there that they would be willing to participate in that style.
With respect to discipline, Lt. Grassey stated that he was not afraid of discipline. It was a necessary element. You had to do your job and there had to be structures in place to ensure it happened.
Ms. Van Amsterdam asked Lt. Grassey to provide an example of how he would practice the participatory style in a union environment.
Lt. Grassey responded that management was separate from union. Within the Superior Officers there was a command staff and that was who you lean toward. He would like to see several voices in a room and only one voice leaving the room. If allowed to participate he thought people had a better sense of value to the organization. You may have to pick and chose who may participate but he thought it was important for people to have a voice and have a sense they were helping. The Police Department was paramilitary and people had to understand if they differed from the rules they face some discipline.
Lt. Grassey didn’t think the officers feared the discipline. Sometimes they feared the process. There had to be a sense it was fair and if that was done as a team there would be better results.
Question 4
Lt. Grassey felt that interim chief was a difficult position. Dramatic changes would be difficult for anybody sitting in that position. Interim was more of a conservatorship or guardian. The interim chief couldn’t build something that would be an encumbrance for a full-time chief and wouldn’t want to do something counter to someone who may be their boss in a few months. He didn’t see a dramatic difference in the deliverance of services in the interim beyond restructuring what the lieutenants and sergeants do. They would be down one lieutenant so the division of labor would change, the deliverance of supervision may have to change and may impact down to the street level.
If he were to become the interim chief Mr. Connolly asked if Lt. Grassey thought a fourth lieutenant should be hired. Lt. Grassey responded that he would have to sit down and see the division of labor. Until that was sorted out and worked with for awhile, it would be impossible to say that was a necessary step.
Question 5
Lt. Grassey told the Board that he thought being disciplined helped. That was a wake up call. There have been a number of traumatic events but typically those frantic situations would tell you how you will handle it. Usually those situations will tell you if you were in the right position and if you were doing a good job.
Question 6
Lt. Grassey agreed with the philosophy of having these officers in the schools. Many of the problems start during the juvenile process of life. Having an SRO in the schools was a great source of information and an understanding of who was having difficulty and gave a better understanding of motivation of juvenile disorder.
However, it may be a luxury when talking about the number of cars on the road. If the department faced a problem with the deliverance of service
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
there may be the loss of an SRO, maybe a detective, but those were decisions that would have to be made.
Mr. Ostroff asked if Lt. Grassey saw some dividends being paid by having an SRO at the high school, but Lt. Grassey thought it was too soon to say. Officer Rodriquez had just been assigned. He was deeply immersed but it remains to be seen what he can do. Detective Halloran had been doing it for 8 or 9 years and was held in high regard and it is astounding what he has done in the past.
Question 7
Lt. Grassey didn’t know about the program reducing crime. It was difficult to compare 2006 to 1997 when the crime rate was going up. The benefit of the system was to try to ingrain their responsibility for beyond eight hours a day. That was a means of communication between those officers and the supervisor that functioned pretty well. Probably a little more work could be done in crunching the number, but to make a determination that crime was dissuaded based on that service was impossible for him to say. Typically it was structured by calls per area but he didn’t know if it was more effective thwarting crime.
In response to Ms. Van Amsterdam’s request to talk about the area command strategy and the advantages or disadvantages of area command, Lt. Grassey identified the advantage as ownership of an area and information being transferred to all three shifts. In this system you knew about the problems. It was a communication device and from that aspect it was a benefit. It was an administrative burden. There had to be meetings and information had to be sent out and a follow-up. This system tried to keep the officers in the loop, but he didn’t see any true benefit to answering the calls. It was more a neighborhood driven than call driven system.
Question 8
Lt. Grassey responded that it was difficult. It was bad to pray for retirements that would help ease the burden, but the Police Department was down to bare bones. All the money was tied up in paying personnel. The building was built and the cars were running. If forced with a reduction in money a determination would have to be made which service would go by the wayside. Public safety was like insurance. Nobody liked to pay it but if something bad happened, they were glad to have it.
Right now officers respond to minor accidents, but they may not get an officer for those. Someone runs over your lawn, you may not get an officer. Somebody uses your credit card, you may not get an officer. Those were the niceties. Most people in the community didn’t need the police. They go through their life and everything was fine until they become a victim and when something happens they want the comfort of a police officer in their home taking a report. Some of that would be lost if the department lost money. Tough decisions would be made in the future.
Mr. Ostroff asked if Lt. Grassey saw operational efficiencies that could be implemented to help preserve bodies or did he feel most had been done.
Lt. Grassey responded that the majority had been done. There may be a little room to remove some officers from hearings, but that couldn’t be done entirely. It was minimal. Presently vacation days were capped to five members off at a time. If there was the staffing maybe there could be more off at a time. It would get down to minutiae to try to stretch the money.
If appointed as the Interim Chief, Mr. Ciccariello asked how Lt. Grassey would manage this year’s budget. Lt. Grassey noted that the budget was in place and the people were in place. He would need a lot of direction from Sergeant Fitzpatrick and would hope nothing cataclysmic occurred, but he believed the structural set up now was pretty firm and the department could get through the year without coming back and asking for anything. However, it would take weekly or even daily overseeing of the expenditures.
Ms. Van Amsterdam inquired as to how he would utilize mutual aid. Would it be his choice to utilize service from other communities for a more regional approach.
Lt. Grassey advised there were agreements in place and they have called Sherborn to cover a house alarm or Framingham for a traffic accident, but everybody was in the same boat and you couldn’t depend on another organization.
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
Question 9
Lt. Grassey noted that if something had to be enacted because of a budget shortfall or a change in delivery of service, it would enter the realm of impact bargaining. Information was the key. No one liked to give something up something without getting something. People needed to be brought in and given an explanation of your philosophy, what the changes were, and the benefits. If you could sell them on the idea, you would get a lot more leeway. Many people don’t like change, but change was coming and you had to show that change would be necessary for the benefit of the body at a later date. People had to be treated like adults.
Mr. Ostroff noted that the Board didn’t know if the interim appointment would be a couple of months or longer. There hadn’t been any feedback from HRD and things don’t happen quickly.
Lt. Grassey responded that he was interested in the job short-term or long-term. His ultimate goal was to be a chief and he was anxious to get there.
In bargaining with the different units, Ms. Van Amsterdam inquired as to how Lt. Grassey would convince the units that what was being proposed was the for the benefit of the body for a later date. How would he make people understand it may not benefit them but would benefit the Town and the department?
Lt. Grassey responded that people need to be educated. There was an organization to the Police Department and they all lived off each other and may have to accept there maybe some things you don’t like but you have to look at the greater picture. It would probably take a lot of explaining but it would come from dealing with people as adults and having people have a clear understanding there was a benefit. It may hurt them personally but if they understood the entire organization would benefit and preserve their job or their friend’s job, it would be easier to accept. It had to be done with communication skills.
In his concluding remarks, Lt. Grassey felt this was a great opportunity for the Board to see what the department did behind the four walls and he asked that everyone one come over and see them during the day. The department was people not fast cars, guns. People consider policing crude and often it was but it was people and there was a different side.
Lt. Grassey expressed his appreciation in being before the Board tonight and hoped the Board would give him due consideration.
Mr. Ciccariello asked if Lt. Lauzon had any objections if Lt. Grassey remained in the audience during his interview. Lt. Lauzon had no objections.
Mr. Ciccariello explained the interview process.
In his opening statement, Lieutenant Brian Lauzon stated his appreciation for the Board’s time and thoughtfulness as far as taking on this task for the interim chief position. He stressed that he was interested in the interim position and expected to compete at a high level for the permanent chief’s job. He expected to bring the same leadership as he had to Safety Officer’s position to the corner office and operate in the exact same way as he had over the last nine years as a supervisor.
Question 1
Lieutenant Lauzon noted that over the last year he had taken on a lot of responsibility not only as patrol service commander but in training inside and outside the department. He has taken a number of leadership courses both on his own time and Town time and built great partnerships within the community and community organizations. He has sat on a number of different committees.
Lt. Lauzon said he saw himself as a very participatory person who often liked to listen. He believed he was prepared to be a finalist and believed a chief had to be competent in all areas (of Police work). Over the last 29 years he had fulfilled every position from patrolman to undercover, dispatching, working in the schools. That was a quality he thought the Chief needed to have.
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
Question 2
With the Chief leaving the end of June, Lt. Lauzon thought some time was needed for transition but there also had to be a clear line of authority
regarding the department’s command staff and with the Chief’s approval he planned to work with the Chief to do a top to bottom internal review to develop a clear road map. They would have to be prepared to get started right after July 1 to work on the FY 2011 budget. He knew the department would be asked to give up more and he would like the command staff to do a top down internal budget looking at efficient effective ways to do the job through patrol to detective taking into consideration cuts would have to be made in FY 2011.
Mr. Ostroff asked Lt. Lauzon to elaborate on either internal or external issues facing the chief. Lt. Lauzon responded that the interim and permanent chief would have to tackle leadership and budget to get the maximum use of the tax dollars. The way the department did business would have to be changed particularly to keep the level of service they were providing today with limited tax dollars. They would have to begin to look at the way the department responded to the Natick Collection. The Police seemed to be at the Natick Collection often and there had been talk about limiting the time spent on shoplifting at some of the major anchor stores. It didn’t make sense to send an officer to court to prosecute a shoplifter. That should be pushed more onto the loss prevention at the Collection. If there was a crime the Police Department would have to respond but they needed to work in partnership with the District Attorney’s office and court to prosecute those crimes.
Ms. Van Amsterdam asked Lt. Lauzon to expound on what he meant by the leadership structure. Rules and regs will flow from somebody who used to be your colleague. Lt. Lauzon noted that the Chief had been there for 22 years and everybody knew who was in charge. A smooth transition was needed when the Chief left. That was the result of good communication and it needs to be clear and smooth and that was what he was prepared to do.
Question 3
Lt. Lauzon stated that he believed in the listening aspect of leadership. You needed to explain a situation to the personnel and there had to be an opportunity to vent to the Chief. There were times when the Chief had to have big shoulders and there were times when the Chief was responsible for leveling out progressive discipline.
Lt. Lauzon noted that the policies and procedures in the office were very outdated. Over the last few years getting the parties to the table to get them updated had been a monumental task. The department couldn’t continue to operate on directives. The policies and procedures needed to get done. The patrol division was looking for guidance and would rather have rules and regs to follow. The leadership needed to get to the table and meet on a regular basis to hammer these things out.
Question 4
Lt. Lauzon identified the dispatch as one area to work on. The amount of time the dispatchers were forced to work was unsafe and unacceptable. The number of times any of the dispatchers were forced to work an extra 8 hour shift was unacceptable and the loss of dispatchers to other communities had to stop. That was one of the first things he would push for to enhance efficiencies and effectiveness of that area.
Another area was the Mall which he had already mentioned.
The budget would have to be reviewed for cost savings and the possibility of not filling a vacancy – maybe an office person in the Records Division or promoting to fill the lieutenant’s position (left by the appointment of an interim chief). He also thought the patrol division supervision responsibility could be realigned and possibly reduce the supervisory staff from the midnight shift. On occasions there was a lot of downtime on that shift that might be able to move around. That would come from a top down inhouse management audit.
Mr. Connolly asked if he had heard that Lt. Lauzon was in favor of not filling the fourth lieutenant’s position. Lt. Lauzon clarified through Fiscal 2011. The issue was the unknown for Fiscal 2011. His goal was not to layoff people and could hold on making that promotion through FY2011.
Mr. Ostroff asked if Lt. Lauzon was concerned about making changes as an interim that would bind a long-term chief. Lt. Lauzon responded that he was concerned. He added that what he got the most were the officers were looking for guidance and looking for change. They (officers) don’t want the
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
interim or the future chief to sit idle and he thought it was the responsibility of the interim chief to hit the road hard and manage the department like he owned it.
Question 5
Lt. Lauzon’s response was all incident command situations and went on to describe three specific incidents.
He received a commendation for an incident where an individual was standing in the garage door with a gun. There was no patrol supervisor on hand. Because of his prior military experience and experience responding to situation he went there set up and brought it to a quick and safe resolution without any injuries.
The second would be where the telephone poles all came down on Route 9 when a dump truck failed to put its body down. He was a sergeant and was thrust into taking command and control.
Lastly was the opening of the new Natick Collection and the hard work by a number of different people that went into the coordination of the rebuilding of the facility. He cited working with all those developing his leadership skills.
Ms. Van Amsterdam asked how each of the situations described influenced his development. Lt. Lauzon responded that it made him think how he could get the message across and communicate effectively in a safe and efficient manner to get the job done in a forward thinking manner. They developed the key component of his leadership style – forward thinking and communication. It helped him develop his leadership and when a crisis arose he was in his comfort zone because he had experienced a number of different incidents. He felt he was a well rounded supervisor.
Question 6
Lt. Lauzon didn’t think they could have found a better person than Officer Rodriquez. Officer Rodriquez brought a lot of different attributes. He (Lt. Lauzon) would have liked to have seen an SRO a long time ago. It was about having a visible police presence in the schools and building a partnership in the school. With the exception of Detective Halloran the Police hadn’t had a lot of interaction with the Schools. There used to be the DARE officer and he knew the names of the students. It was time to get back. If Fiscal 2011 was a tough year that was not the first thing to go in his mind. It would have to be looked at before eliminating the SRO.
Question 7
Lt. Lauzon noted that at the time this was done it was the buzz word of the year. It was setting up patrols where the crimes were happening and doing crime analysis and putting accountability on the shifts. If the newer officers were asked who the area command officer was they probably wouldn’t know. He believed it was time to look at redeveloping the beat structure because times have changed.
The crime analysis was removed and that took the life blood out of the system. A shift commander wasn’t assigned to each shift and it may not be adequate to have the senior most person on the shift. Each sergeant needs to have an auxiliary function and it had to be stressed that everything doesn’t have to be done on overtime.
Question 8
Lt. Lauzon thought he had answered this question in a couple of different ways already, but in June, with the Chief’s approval, he would sit down with the command staff and do an internal top down analysis of how the department did business to map out a blueprint or road map for Fiscal 2011. He expected that within 30 days he could come up with $100,000 worth of savings for FY2011 and could probably capitalize on more if the way business was done was changed.
Mr. Ciccariello inquired as to how Lt. Lauzon saw himself managing the FY2010 budget. Lt. Lauzon noted the FY10 budget was somewhat set in stone. Monitors would have to be put in place and working with Sergeant Fitzpatrick benchmarks would have to be established for each month to get a picture on what was being spent on overtime and court time. He noted that starting six months ago he was asking for the amount being spent on overtime to fill patrol to be monitored. He thought he had done a good job in backfilling for vacation and had been very strict on filling a position when an officer took a day off. With the influx of new officers he got weeks on end without having overtime. He had set benchmarks and policy for the next year and he INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
thought the department would be in good shape. He didn’t expect to come back asking for any additional resources.
Ms. Van Amsterdam asked Lt. Lauzon to identify what he thought were the key drivers. $100,000 was a substantial amount of money. Lt. Lauzon responded that he wouldn’t fill the fourth lieutenant’s position. The drivers were very fractured. Certain things would need to be moved around and he would have to work collaboratively with the other lieutenants and Sergeant Fitzpatrick. There would have to be some changes to how they did business. He thought the patrol officers would buy into it, but there would need to be communication and the officers would need a seat at the table. Good leaders need to be develop now rather than waiting for the chief or a lieutenant to leave. They needed to be groomed now and he thought they were looking forward to the challenge.
Question 9
Lt. Lauzon felt that in June the interim chief needed to sit down with the four unions represented in the Police Department. A lot of people didn’t understand what was meant by management rights and a lot of times people were fearful of management rights. All parties involved need to be educated including the Chief and the supervisors of what management rights mean, when impact bargaining was necessary, and when a grievance or unfair labor practice was warranted.
Lt. Lauzon noted that he was president of the union for a number of years and knew that side and what could be done. If the officers were given a seat at the table things can be worked out and it would start with the policies and procedures. 20% (of the officers) will rant and rave but the other 80% shouldn’t suffer.
In his closing remarks, Lt. Lauzon thanked the Board for having the lieutenants in and getting their insight for what they thought should be done. He stressed that he took his job very seriously and took his partnership and contacts in the government side, citizen side, and officers side very seriously but most importantly he took his creditability seriously. He was honest and energetic. He was at his job early as were most of the lieutenants and Sergeant Fitzpatrick. There were some dedicated professionals and well rounded officers in the department and it was an honor for him to work in this town and this department. He liked the town and the people and would be honored to serve as the interim and hopefully the next police chief.
- Lieutenant Nicholas Mabardy
Lt. Mabardy opened by saying this was a humbling experience being considered for the position of interim chief. He would have to speak about himself which he told the Board he had a great deal of difficulty articulating, but he wanted to be considered and to do that he had to talk about himself. He didn’t want the Board to interpret it as being boastful.
Question 1
Lt. Mabardy stated that he had a masters in criminal justice and was a graduate of the FBI National Academy. He was also a graduate of the Senior Management Institute for Police and received additional training in law enforcement through the Chiefs of Police Association. He was afforded the opportunity to attend the FBI management institute as well. In addition he received a number of certifications of achievement ranging from child exploitation to investigative training and crime analysis. He had been on the Police Department for a long time and in that time attended a lot of very important and worthwhile training.
Question 2
Lt. Mabardy responded that all municipalities not just Natick were in dire straights. For the Police Department to provide the necessary services, they would have to come up with some creative ideas – maybe change their perspective for how they provide some of the Police service to operate within the fiscal constraints.
Asked to give an example, Lt Mabardy cited the need to customize some of the responses to some of the calls. Perhaps calls would have to be stacked and explain to people that currently officers were busy and that someone would respond depending on the urgency. The department needed to find ways of using technology to help with the amount of training the department has been accustomed to receiving. There were a lot of things that could be done with the Police web site to help enhance the offerings to the public, i.e. application forms, accident reports.
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
Question 3
Lt. Mabardy believed there was a distinct difference between being a manager and a leader and to be the Chief of Police you had to be both. What he found was that you could manage the operation but you need to lead the people. People don’t want to be managed. They want to be lead and he was more of the type where he liked to listen, liked to be thoughtful, and liked to be collaborative. He felt this was a period of time where the people in the department were very knowledgeable. These knowledgeable workers had a value but you cannot get the value of these people unless you include them in part of the decision making.
As the chief the decision making process was a little different than the officer on the street. The officer had to make an immediate quick response to a situation but the Chief had the ability to take the time, assess, evaluate, reflect and make an intelligent decision. There were so many intelligent people in the department that their input should be taken into consideration in making decisions. If they felt what they had to say would be listened to, it would have a bigger impact.
Lt. Mabardy defined his style of leadership as involving everybody and not minimizing someone. Because someone’s rank was patrol officer didn’t mean they weren’t someone who could contribute. Some people in a leadership role felt because they had the rank what they said was the end all and be all. He would listen and had the patience and compassion to listen. His reputation had obviously been one of consideration and thoughtfulness. People say he was too nice, too kind, too thoughtful. While he should take that as a compliment, he thought they meant that he couldn’t be the Chief of Police and be a thoughtful nice person. That was totally incorrect. He thought someone could be a leader and still have the qualification of being a humanitarian.
In his mind the perspective of the Police Department had to change. The department was not run by a dictatorship. More people need to be involved. He believed in the Golden Rule and never treated anyone other than the way he wanted to be treated. He earned respect. No one gave you respect, you earned it and he thought he had earned it. He gave people good customer service because he believed they deserved it not just because they were taxpayers but because they were human beings.
Lt. Mabardy continued that he led by example. Not everybody was in agreement with the way he did it, but that was the way he was and that was the way he would like to operate.
Mr. Ostroff inquired as to Lt. Mabardy’s approach to maintaining discipline. Lt. Mabardy explained that when there was a problem in the past, and not necessarily this particular administration, the discipline has been done with a broad brush. He believed if there was an issue or that issue should be addressed with the person responsible for the issue and that should be done one-on-one. Everybody should not be persecuted because of one individual. That was done more than he would like to see. Discipline was part of the Police Department. The department needed rules and regs and they needed to be followed and when they weren’t, it needed to be addressed.
Question 4
Lt. Mabardy stated that he would like to see the department become accredited. The accreditation was very involved, but it has been accomplished by neighboring police departments. It was a worthwhile endeavor and would make the department eligible for funding. It gave the department a guideline to follow and you knew what was expected. People want to do well but if they don’t they have the guidelines to follow they will do what they think is right. If presented in a palatable way, people will see that it was not going to be used to be punitive. It would help them to do their job better and he would like to see the Town continue in that direction. He would like to see the web site upgraded for people to see more of the service provided by the Police Department.
If he were to become the interim chief, Mr. Connolly asked Lt. Mabardy if he would try to fill the vacant lieutenant position. Lt. Mabardy advised that he would not.
Ms. Van Amsterdam asked Lt. Mabardy to give the Board some additional benefits of being accredited that he had seen in other towns. Lt. Mabardy noted that he hadn’t been intricately involved in the process but a good friend was the deputy chief in Framingham and he did the accreditation and allowed him to look at his work and he found that members of the department saw it as a benefit. It gave the officers guidelines to go by and the INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
department credibility. It lowered insurance rates because the department met standards.
Question 5
Lt. Mabardy noted that he had been fortunate enough to have been the juvenile officer and went to the DARE program. The people he met made him understand the need to address the youth about drugs and alcohol. He enjoyed being the youth officer and worked with the different organizations as the community service officer. He was affiliated with a number of agencies and was still associated with the Council on Aging, Natick Service Council and Children First Natick. It gave him a great deal of respect for the people in town.
Lt. Mabardy added that he was also very fortunate to have the opportunity to go to Quantico and spend 11 weeks with the FBI academy at which he made life long friends with whom he still kept in touch.
Mr. Ostroff inquired as to how that helped him develop as a leader and Lt. Mabardy responded that he learned from their style and character. A friend was the deputy chief of Kansas City with 2,200 officers. He (his friend) exhibits that you could be a good person, well liked and still be the leader of people. When he went to training, the training was good but the contacts were better and you generally encountered good people who knew how to treat people.
Question 6
Lt. Mabardy stated that he had been advocating for an SRO for some time. Unfortunately the Town was not in a position to be able to afford it. It was difficult to take an officer off the street, not replace that person and still provide the same service. He believed in the SRO and if the department could get by and still maintain a level of service for the rest of the Town he would be very supportive of it.
Question 7
Lt. Mabardy felt there were advantages. When an officer was assigned to a particular area they developed the ownership. They became stakeholders in that area and knew the issues, the problems and hopefully became familiar with the people in the area. From his experience from being in certain areas he was able to develop a good rapport and knew the problems and could address them.
One disadvantage was that one area was extra large and very difficult for an officer to at times cover that area. There have been some creative solutions to the idea of ownership, being a stakeholder and addressing problems for that area.
Based on the evidence he had seen, Mr. Ostroff inquired if there had been any reduction in crime. Lt. Mabardy couldn’t give the statistics. He didn’t believe crime had gone down and it was difficult to say it has gone up. He thought it had but it was not indicative of the design of three areas. He didn’t know if crime had increased or decreased.
Question 8
Lt. Mabardy told the Board that he did not know the intricacies of the budget and probably would refer to Sergeant Fitzpatrick. He understood that he would have to continue to make cuts in an attempt to continue with the high level of service the Town has been accustomed to. It was almost impossible to say the department would be able to provide the same level of service.
Ms. Van Amsterdam inquired if he had some ideas in terms of programs or personnel he may want to alter as the result of the budget shortfall. Lt. Mabardy didn’t feel he could answer that. It was a good question but it was difficult. He believed in collaboration with other people and getting input and discussion on some of the ways to operate, function and provide the service. That had to be done with a few people. There had to be an assessment and collection of data before a question like that could be answered.
Mr. Ciccariello inquired as to how Lt. Mabardy would manage the FY10 budget. Lt. Mabardy noted the FY10 budget was not something anybody was looking forward to. You couldn’t make any new hires. If someone left he may have to consider not filling that position. He didn’t like to see staffing cut any more than it was as they still needed to provide the service and he didn’t see that being maintained if there continued to be cuts. A decision would have to be made as to whether to change the way business was done and INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
alter what they normally did. He further noted that he was not as involved in the budget as some people.
Question 9
Lt. Mabardy said he had no problem with the executive boards of both unions and would feel comfortable talking with them. He thought that was the problem – there wasn’t always communication and if you communicated better there would be fewer disagreements, a better understanding, and a better ability to resolve differences. He was not intimidated by the people in the union and the people that represent people in the union were some of the finest. They were dedicated and sincere, but you had to communicate with them.
In his closing remarks, Lt. Mabardy apologized if he didn’t answer some of the questions. He noted that he had not been involved in budgeting and staffing as much as he would have liked to have been but he had other responsibilities. It would be an honor to be considered for the interim Chief of Police. You couldn’t operate a Police Department without being able to listen, understand, communicate, respect, and instill pride. A lot of time people forget that.
You want an officer to do a good job on the street, but if there was a problem when the officer left the building and was unhappy about something that went on, it needed to be addressed. A fund raiser was just held for a young officer whose son was diagnosed with leukemia. Everyone put aside any difference and came together. That was done by leadership. There was nothing more valuable in the whole department than the people that work there. The Town invests so much money and to manage them you want to show respect. Lt. Mabardy said he thought he could do that and thought he was the ideal person for the job from what he had done his entire career.
Lt. Mabardy continued that he didn’t have an ego and it would never get in the way of his decision making. He knew he treated people well and expected people to treat other people well.
He thanked the Board for allowing him to be here.
Mr. Ciccariello asked if Lt. Pagliarulo had any objections to the candidates previously interviewed being in the audience. Lt. Pagliarulo had no objection. Mr. Ciccariello then reviewed the interview process.
In his opening remarks, Lt. Pagliarulo told the Board that he clearly intended to apply for the job of Police Chief as well as Interim Chief. He felt all four of the lieutenants were viable candidates with different management styles and he would work with any of those candidates as he would want them to work with him. The advantage was on the Board’s side with four good candidates.
Question 1
Lt. Pagliarulo noted that on June 30 he would be entering his 32 year. He has had a long career with the department and held just about every job there was from reserve to regular patrolman, detective, sergeant, lieutenant in charge of operations, and currently lieutenant in charge of special operations and training. That has given him broad experience. He has also continued his education taking over 60 courses over the years. One of the best was given at the Babson Institute when he made sergeant on how to manage and how to assess yourself. His latest was getting a Master’s from Boston University in an online degree.
Lt. Pagliarulo continued that his less formal education came from being a desk sergeant having to deal with officers and the problems they were presented. In that capacity you learned how to work with people. Underneath he had a real feeling that this was his town. He was born and brought up here and felt a strong attachment. It would be an honor to be the Chief of Police and enhance the quality of life.
Question 2
Lt. Pagliarulo thought the budget was both short and long-term. He had been able to sit in on meetings the Chief had chaired to come up with ways to reduce expenses and maintain the core of police services. To do that the department would have to learn to do things in a more efficient way and look for funding sources. One systematic approach was looking for grants. Grants can be specialized but can help some.
Lt. Pagliarulo suggested that another approach would be to better utilize the staffing especially the sergeants through helping to bring their level
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
of expertise higher and to get more ownership at the middle level staff as well as the patrol officers to foster a team approach to problems.
Question 3
Lt. Pagliarulo noted that when he attended the staff college at Babson he was very interested in the way one professor had them analyze their management style by doing exercises. His style was democratic and utilizing other staff members, but at times he would have to be autocratic. The broad approach was democratic trying to get a broad consensus and setting an understandable goal.
Discipline issues would always be there and he (Lt. Pagliarulo) believed in the progressive approach. He would first communicate to the officer as to what standards were expected, point it out to the officer, make the officer correct it at the time and provide an explanation that it cannot happen in the future. If it happened, go up the level starting with a formal reprimand. Punishment should meet the crime or education should remedy the failing. All attempts should be made to do it in a positive way and clearly explain what should be done.
Lt. Pagliarulo stated that he would also devote a lot of effort into codifying the existing rules and regs or digitalizing them so they would be accessible to the staff. He recalled being a night desk sergeant knowing there was a policy but it was difficult to put his hand on it.
Question 4
As interim chief Lt. Pagliarulo felt a large emphasis should be on being a good steward of the department of the good practices Chief Mannix has put in place before making any changes. If you were only there for a few months and tried to make changes, you would fail. If you were there for a year or more, there was an opportunity, but otherwise you were there to preserve what we have. A change he would make over time would be to digitize the rules and regs and increase the amount of roll call training about those policies.
He would also try to involve the sergeants more and try one more time to do the area command concept. It was difficult but he thought it held a lot of promise in giving a group of officers ownership.
If appointed as interim chief, Mr. Connolly asked if Lt. Pagliarulo would hire the 4th lieutenant. Lieutenant Pagliarulo responded that he would have to have the funds before he would consider doing it. For the short-term having a lieutenant as interim could prevent some layoffs, but they were pretty busy and would have to be doing more work in the same time or push some items aside. It couldn’t be for a long time or permanent but in a pinch it could be delayed not to have to lay off people.
Question 5
Lt. Pagliarulo noted that it was an epiphany when he first made sergeant. It was a difficult leap from worker to supervisor. As a patrolman he did his job and went home and if the next person didn’t do as good a job it wasn’t his responsibility, but the supervisor was responsible for everybody.
Another situation would be as a sergeant and to an extent as a lieutenant, people come with questions of what to do. The supervisor was responsible to set standards that were fair and reachable and that was what he has done. Sometimes you were asked questions that you weren’t equally versed in and you had to say I don’t know and find out the answer together. There was that constant pressure of people asking what to do and asking for help to solve a problem and delegate back again so they had the tools to solve it.
Those were small things – nothing dramatic, but he learned how to be a supervisor, how to be a leader, and how to set a standard. One quality that came out of that was gaining the confidence of your subordinates. They trust you enough to listen and be fair. If the communication was cut off, the department was hurt in the long run. When he was the operation command he would tell the sergeants to call him at home.
Given what he learned, Ms. Van Amsterdam asked Lt. Pagliarulo to put himself in the Chief’s position and describe what would be different.
Lt. Pagliarulo responded that instead of being reactive, as chief he would have to be more proactive in terms of rules and regs to make the standards clear and accessible and enforceable. He would do roll call training. People need to know what was expected. As the training officer he would continue training. He felt admirable growth had been made being proactive and as a leader and chief he would communicate standards and expectations.
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
He would brainstorm with his lieutenants and make more of a connection between the higher level of staff.
Lt. Pagliarulo continued that he would like to revitalize the area commands where everybody had a supervisor and a lieutenant to take care of an area or group of officers and would use sergeants to oversee and set the standards and manage the day-to-day activities. It was hard to do sometimes with different demands. The department was too big for the chief to know everybody and too small to have enough specialists to do the many things out there.
Question 6
Lt. Pagliarulo stated that he agreed with those assignments. The advantage was dealing with the rising generation. He had seen some contemporaries of his son that have taken the wrong turn and the department was dealing with them now. The more the department can intervene the more they could affect the rising generation in keeping crime down. It gave you a window shot of a segment of the population and who they were. When DARE was terminated a source of information was lost. An SRO can gather that intel and give the ability to handle problems at the schools.
Lt. Pagliarulo continued that every day the police dealt with accidents, shop lifting thefts, etc and needed a certain amount of manpower. When he first became a detective doing narcotics there were times when he went back on patrol when needed and then back to being a detective. It wasn’t ideal for doing narcotics but it was the practicality and that might affect the ability of keeping an SRO, but he would support it and would like to see the department engaged with the schools. It was the same concept as community policing.
Question 7
Lt. Pagliarulo noted that when he became a lieutenant he inherited that system and periodically he would meet with the sergeants to deal with traffic issues, liquor licenses, apartment complex issues, etc.. It gave ownership to those sergeants of the different problems. He thought that was a real advantage and thought it produced some good services and enforcement and kept it out of the courts. They were able to deal with things to solve the problem rather than just writing a ticket or bringing someone to court. One problem was to do it in the best way you should be able to vary the hours but because of contractual issues that couldn’t be done easily or without a lot of overtime.
The other thing that was wrestled with was that perhaps a lieutenant should have been in charge but that would take time away from the administrative duties. There was never a good answer. In cities where this worked well there was a geographic area. In our town it was the same geographic area so the unit command at times got fuzzy. It was a love diamond, but he still thought it was valuable and had promise.
Question 8
Lt. Pagliarulo responded that the first thing he would do would be to support the active pursuit of grants. The money for a dispatcher’s salary came from a grant. He had some success in that area and that should be pursued as vigorously as possible even if it meant assigning someone full time. Using the dispatcher supervisor as a dispatcher handles our personnel problems but it takes away the ability to go after the services.
The other thing that needed to be looked at was the level of response for handling minor accidents with no motor vehicle law infraction. He felt the amount of time spent should be reduced. For a while Boston wouldn’t respond to a house break unless it was in progress. They would mail the form. Lt. Pagliarulo didn’t think it was at that dramatic level but the department could only do so much with what they had and by re-deploying the resources some things you would like to have may be left out. It may come back to the SRO.
As to how he would manage and implement the FY10 budget, Lt. Pagliarulo said he would increase the command staff meetings and would involve the lieutenants in managing their portion of the budget as frugally as they could. If a goal was set, he would see if it was being met. It would be difficult to say no overtime but the amount of discretionary overtime could be reduced and that was being done. The Chief laid down some guidelines. Sometimes there were just not enough hours in the day and he would try to involve his other staff and do a group monitoring.
INTERVIEWS FOR APPOINTMENT FOR INTERIM POLICE CHIEF (contd)
Question 9
Lt. Pagliarulo was of the understanding that directives spoke to specific areas covered in the contract that would require the bargaining unit to alter what was guaranteed in the contract and he would try as best he could to involve the union leadership in those areas. He thought it was fruitful even if he thought the union would not buy into it in order to get an early understanding of the road blocks. Some things had to be done in an autocratic manner if it affects safety and that might trigger something in the contract. Involving the union might mean reaching a temporary negotiated policy and working conditions that would have to be addressed later as contracts were re-negotiated.
The other half was to come and talk to the Town Administrator and use the resource of people with more experience and involve them earlier in the process. He wouldn’t want to reach an agreement with the bargaining units and find it wouldn’t be supported by the Town.
In his closing comments, Lt. Pagliarulo thanked the Board for giving the lieutenants the opportunity to come here and present themselves as candidates for interim chief. He thought he could do the job and thought he could work effectively with any of the other three. All shared the desire to make this a better town and a better police department.
Lt. Pagliarulo stated that he would like to be considered when the Board discussed what it felt was needed in the leadership. He knew the decision was not an easy choice but thanked the Board for giving them the opportunity to show what they thought they had to offer.
Mr. Ciccariello explained that the appointment was tentatively on the agenda for Monday night’s meeting, but if the Board still had questions or was looking for additional answers, the appointment could be considered at the following meeting.
Mr. Ciccariello reminded the Board that prior to talking about interim chief there should be a discussion for how to proceed with a permanent chief. He would try to get in touch with the Town Administrator on Monday to see what she had learned from Civil Service. He asked Ms. Challis to inform the candidates they should be in attendance at Monday’s meeting.
Mr. Connolly asked if the Board would discuss the potential length of time for the interim chief appointment. Mr. Ciccariello advised that would be talked about in the discussion of a permanent chief.
Mr. Ostroff noted that none of the candidates were provided with the questions. They all came in cold and he thought all four candidates demonstrated a knowledge of the workings of the department. Whether it was a burden or a privilege, the Board had four good candidates and he knew the department would be in good hands.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 9:45 p.m.
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